Your Opinions On Israel versus Gaza ongoing Fight Опции

[mecheil.edwar]

In these posts, I will introduce the basic principles of the three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
From here, I will provide an explanation for the problems that occur today regarding this topic.
At the outset, I would like to express my full respect for all believers of all faiths and sects throughout the world.
What I will write is just an explanation and clarification and not offend anyone or any of these three religions.

[mecheil.edwar]

Three main issues that we will discuss with the three religions

The first issue is that God is one or monotheism

The second issue is death and sin

The third issue is repentance and salvation

We start with the Jewish religion.
The first phrase in the Bible in the Book of Genesis says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
There are many texts in the Bible that clarify and confirm monotheism and reject idolatry.
To the Lord God you worship, and you worship Him alone.
So monotheism and that God is one and that the Creator is very clear from the beginning of the Bible.

Now we are discussing the second point in the Jewish religion.
Death and sin.
The first person that God created was Adam and the first woman that God created was Eve, and from them all human beings came.
According to the text of the Bible in Genesis, chapter 1, God created Adam from the dust of the earth.

Even here, everything is perfect.
But Adam sinned and broke God's commandment.
Thus he was sentenced to death.
Death is of two types.
The first death is the separation of the human soul from his body. And the body returns to the dirt that was taken from it.
The second death is the survival of the human soul in eternal torment, which we call Hell or Eternal Fire.

as mentioned in the bible
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you [are], and to dust you shall return.

[ioncube]

mecheil.edwar, russianclient, You both gentlemen can do discussions without resorting to uncontrolled burst of emotions & in this very spirit I will add my two cents.

Among Christians there are x3 major splits: Catholic, Eastern Orthodox & Protestants. Protestants has always been very closer to Islam as far as their rituals are concerned. This especially includes a progressive mindset, not accepting any organized religious hierarchy (like Catholic pope), a more closer to monotheism & adherence to iconoclasm.

Regarding progressive thought:
French-Ottomans two centuries alliance was deeply influence by progressive nature of Protestants
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance#Cultural_and_scientific_exchanges

Regarding aversion to idols / figures:

The rejection of images in worship, although more prominent in Islam, is a common point in Protestantism and Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam#Iconoclasm
However icons, figures, drawings veneration are tolerated in a major Islamic sect - Shia (20% of all Muslims & is dominant in Iran)

Regarding monotheism:
A sect of Protestants follows same monotheism as Jews & Muslims (see attachment). Even Church of England (Protestant) when communicating with Ottomans proclaimed that Trinity is NOT idol-worshipping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam#Efforts_at_doctrinal_rapprochement

Elizabeth, by the grace of the most mighty God, the three part and yet singular Creator of Heaven and Earth, Queen of England, France and Ireland, the most invincible and most mighty defender of the Christian faith against all the idolatry of those unworthy ones that live amongst Christians, and falsely profess the name of Christ
Letter of Elizabeth I to Murad III

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[mecheil.edwar]

Thank you ioncube for your post ...
I ask all followers to be patient until I reach the end of the explanation and clarify the cause of the problem.
in my previous post we reach to that there is a sin
Sin requires death.
(Note that I am still explaining the Jewish faith.)

In order for a person to be forgiven by God, he must do three things.
Repentance and remorse for the sin that he committed.
A sinful person must go to the priest and confess his sin.

Sin has a price, it is not free, and a person must pay a price for his sins.
This price is what is known as the sacrifice or penance.
This sacrfice is one of the types of animals such as cows or sheep.
It must be a male, not a female.
It must be intact and free from any defects

Сообщение отредактировал mecheil.edwar - 24.05.2021 - 15:26

[mecheil.edwar]

A sinner comes to the priest with the sacrifice, as we said, and the person confesses his sins, then the priest places his hand on the person's head and puts his last hand on the sacrifice. Then the priest slaughtered the sacrifice. This indicates that the wages of sin is death, but instead of the person dying, the sacrifice was killed (one of the animals is a sheep or a cow, as we said).
Here the indication is that there is a live sacrifice or sacrifice in place of the sinful person.
Then the priest burns the sacrifice with fire on the altar.
Fire here is a symbol of divine justice.
And the altar is the place that God has appointed for offering the atonement or sacrifice.

A sinner comes to the priest with the sacrifice, as we said, and the person confesses his sins, then the priest places his hand on the person's head and puts his last hand on the sacrifice. Then the priest slaughtered the sacrifice. This indicates that the wages of sin is death, but instead of the person dying, the sacrifice was killed (one of the animals is a sheep or a cow, as we said).
Here the indication is that there is a live sacrifice or sacrifice in place of the sinful person.
Then the priest burns the sacrifice with fire on the altar.
Fire here is a symbol of divine justice.
And the altar is the place that God has appointed for offering the atonement or sacrifice.

And this altar was located in the temple of Solomon.
The Temple of Solomon is located in Palestine, in the city of Jerusalem.
And every believer must offer the sacrifice on this altar.
This is so that he will be cleansed of his sins and be saved from his sins.
All of these things were happening until the year AD 70. When the Romans entered by Titus and besieged the Holy City. The Romans destroyed Solomon's Temple.
And this temple did not rise again.
In conclusion, then, one of the pillars of Jewish worship is the offering of animal sacrifices on the altar.
And this altar is in Solomon's temple.
According to the Old Testament Bible texts, no other altar can be built to offer sacrifices other than the Temple of Solomon.
So building this temple again is imperative for them to complete the work of atonement or salvation.

We come now to Christianity.
Christianity interpreted animal sacrifices as merely a symbol of the true Savior.
There is a Savior who must carry out the process of redemption and pay for the sins of the whole world. It cannot be a bullock or a lamb, which is a price for the redemption of man.
Christianity, then, did not stop at the blood sacrifices. Rather, she saw that there is a true Savior who must come and be the true sacrifice that dies and pays for the sins of the whole world.
This is the true living Christ who came, was crucified, died, paid the penalty for sin and offered redemption.
Consequently, there was no longer any role for Solomon's temple, because the role of animal sacrifices had ended with the coming of the true sacrifice.

[mecheil.edwar]

We are now discussing Islam
The beginning of Judaism and its main reference is the Old Testament Bible, which was written from Moses the Prophet to Malachi the Prophet
Christianity believes in the Bible, the Old Testament, along with the Bible, the New Testament, which was written after the birth of Christ.
Islam believes in the Holy Quran and the hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad.
Islam discussed the three major issues that we mentioned, namely
Monotheism, sin and salvation are as follows.
Tawheed Islam calls for monotheism. Say that God is one.
Regarding sin and Adam's fall.
Almost the same story that was mentioned in the critical book was mentioned in the Holy Quran in Surat Taha.
It is that Adam disobeyed God and did not carry out his will, so God expelled him from Paradise.
We come now to the last point, which is the concept of salvation in Islam.
Islam did not discuss this idea, as it did in Judaism, which believes that animal sacrifices should be offered. Or the parable of Christianity, which holds that the true sacrifice was offered by the Savior, Jesus Christ.
Islam only shows that repentance is what frees a person from Hell. Because God is repentant, merciful. That is, there is no price that a person or his representative must pay for his sins.

Islam only discussed the idea of sacrifice, just as Abraham the Prophet did with his son when God wanted Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice. But then God refused to let the Prophet Abraham slaughter his son and asked him to slaughter a lamb instead of him.
And Muslims make such offerings on Eid al-Adha.
They slaughter sheep, cows or camels.

And Muslims all over the world have many sacred places that no one can lose or inflict damage on these places.
The first place is the Kaaba, and it is located in Saudi Arabia.
The second place is the Mosque of the Prophet Muhammad, or what is known as the Holy Prophet's Mosque, which is also located in Saudi Arabia.
The third place is the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and this is located in Palestine, Jerusalem.
This is the main component of all the disputes, problems and demonstrations that are now taking place in Palestine.

According to the faith of Muslims.
This mosque - I mean Al-Aqsa Mosque - was visited by the Prophet Muhammad and worshiped there in Palestine and asked Muslims to make this place sacred to them, like the Holy Kaaba and the Prophet’s Mosque.
So this mosque was built approximately in the year 650 or 670 AD.
It is the same place in the Temple of Solomon, which was demolished in AD 70.
This is the biggest problem at the level of the whole world.
The Jews see that Solomon's Temple is located at the bottom of the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
The mosque must be demolished in order for them to build the temple and complete their worship.
Muslims believe that the mosque is one of the three holy sites that no one can approach, destroy, or remove because it is a fundamental pillar of Islam.

this is the problem. And this is the conflict. So it is basically a religious conflict. There is no leader, president, or leader who can intervene to solve this problem.

I hope to clarify these facts to you. Sorry for the prolongation.
Once again, I reiterate my sincere respect and appreciation to the three religions and to all believers from all over the world, with their different religions and sects.
thank you.

[Williams]

mecheil.edwar, this certainly is very educational and interesting for someone. But for me personally, the subtleties in sacrifice (or lack thereof) have nothing to do with the causes of the military conflict. I agree with russianclient, it is based on maniacal desires to rule the world and make big money.

[mecheil.edwar]

Williams,
I respect Your viewpoint surely...
I am from the middle east and I am near the events...
I gave the major issues and explansions for what is going on in the middle east since more than 100 Years..
no problem to have some minor issues from politicians...
But it is not the major thing that moves event there...
Beleive me....
any way I would like to thank You Sir Williams so much as you are not only supporting softwares and programs technologly...
but also you try to support the peace that most parts of the world have been lost nowadays.
God bless You.
My deep respect to your goodself.
Mecheil.

Сообщение отредактировал mecheil.edwar - 25.05.2021 - 05:54

[mehakkhalid]

Maybe you need to look at the bigger picture. The major issue is not the mosque. The main issue is that Israel has been kicking out the people who have been living in their homes for more than 70 years. Look at Sheikh Jarrah. Look at the size of Israel in 1948 and now. You will understand what I am saying and what is the problem

[mecheil.edwar]

Dear mehakkhalid
Let me thank you for your post.
and let us review the story from the begining...

why jewish retunrned back to Palastine...
they can select any other land... and they have lived in many countries before whithout any problem....
and nowadays you also prove my words... why they are surrounding the Jerusalem and deduct so many places from the original arab people...
this land for them it is not only a normal land? it is a very specific holy land as per their faith?
if you read all my explansions it is not only for the land as a normal land please pay attention to my word not as a normal land...
They can go to any other land from the world... and can establish their country...
but this is a religiesue issue... this is the holy land for them and they have to rebuild the ulter that has been destroyed since 2000 years.
this land for them is the same as Al Kabba for Muslims...
this is the main crise.... and this is the major reason that moves the fighting there...
you have the right to agree or disagree with my opinion but this will not change the facts that I have mentioned in my previous posts.
and last point to take into consideration is that I explain the thoughts and the holy things for each believers....
I am not telling this is right or who is wrong...
I explain only the doctrinal aspects for each religion that lead to this crise and fighting...
again I repeat my thanks to You.
Kind Regards.

Сообщение отредактировал mecheil.edwar - 25.05.2021 - 13:13

[ioncube]

mecheil.edwar, thanks for your comprehensive replies. And I being a Muslim will like to clarify some of your research

Regarding Salvation in Islam:
This is underlying argument which is correct per Islam:

Sin has a price, it is not free, and a person must pay a price for his sins

Following is partially correct but generally incorrect

Islam only shows that repentance is what frees a person from Hell. Because God is repentant, merciful. That is, there is no price that a person or his representative must pay for his sins.

Repentance will provide salvation only to sins committed in private (like drinking alcohol, using drugs, skipping prayers) ...such a verbal (prayer assisted) repentance isn't for sins involving other humans/animals or even environment. For these you have to correct or neutralise the damages or otherwise prepare to be burned in hell!! Such sins include rape, murder, corruption of national treasury, dumping chemical untreated waste in oceans...

That is the reason (& one of pillars of Islam) to believe in Dooms Day & the afterlife. You must realise many influential people (politicians, army generals) bypass even from man-made laws. They plunder & create mischief on earth but die a natural death void of any punishment. For such a case belief in Doom's Day judgment is essential or otherwise like you said:

...there is no price that a person or his representative must pay for his sins

[Williams]

I am not a great expert on matters of faith. And also in history.

I just want to give a similar, as it seems to me, example from the history of my country. An example, which I think, shows the ambiguity of the history of relationships between different and the same races and religions.

Once upon a time there were Scythian tribes a couple of thousand years ago. Ancestors of modern Slavs. Then guestworkers - Vikings - showed up to them. They came to work and then won them over. Then the Tatar-Mongols appeared and conquered them. And so far, and so on for a millennium.

And nothing, we live together. And Christians, and Muslims, and Buddhists ... And there are no feuds, like they have got Oraza, but those have got Great Lent. So go and kill the infidels. THERE IS EVEN NO SUCH IDEA!

But there is also a paradox with us. We co-religionists often do not make friends with fellow tribesmen like us - fragments of the Russian empire. We are of the same faith & nation, but we live like cats and dogs. And it's a shame of us.

And here I smoothly draw the analogy that the russianclient presented about politicians, business and their driving forces and motives.

[mecheil.edwar]

Thank you, William, for your opinion.
But the situation in the Middle East is different.
Do not forget that there is a culture, heritage, customs and beliefs that differ from one country to another.
I explained to you a history of over 3,000 years. And how these beliefs are an important factor for each party.
For example, according to what I believe in, I say I, this old house, belongs to me. While you believe in another belief that tells you I am this house is your right and yours.
Please do not understand from my words that I am against peace or that people of all faiths should not live in peace.
Unfortunately, this is the truth.
That this type of conflict differs from all other types of conflicts that arose for the sake of wealth, controlling peoples, or plundering money and others.
Note also that religion for the East differs from, for example, Europe. Religion for peoples in the East is an essential cornerstone of life.
While religiosity in Europe, for example, is not of the same strength in the East.
Different cultures and different levels of religiosity may be the reason why the ideas that I am citing to you are not clear.
In the end, we all pray to God that peace, goodness and justice prevail in Palestine and all over the world.

[russianclient]

I worked with a Palestinian engineer, a very educated person, who was sincere in his belief that Jews never lived in Israel and Torah (Old Testament) was a fake. This is called - delusion. However, I agree that Jewish people in modern Israel create a big problem. Most ultra-orthodox Jews think the same way, because the State of Israel became a product of European colonialism in 1948. Jews never actually wanted to go to Israel. Not from Russia, not from Germany, not from Poland. They did not want to leave the countries where they had thriving economically and socially. That is why they murdered Haim Arlosoroff, while we was walking on Tel-Aviv beach with his wife.
When Hitler rose to power, he wanted to get rid of Jews. He granted them visas to leave Germany and come to Israel, while British did not allow Jews to enter Palestine. Haim Arlosoroff made this agreement with Hitler and saved 60 thousand Jews, while a few millions remained in Germany. That was a problem that required a solution. Hitler consulted with Pope. The result is known now as "Final Solution", a mass murder, genocide, a horrible tragedy. By the way, there are many people who deny it ever happened too.
Anyway, action causes a reaction. What Jewish people are doing in Israel or other countries - is causing a negative reaction from Christians for centuries. The level of government antisemitism in Europe was many times higher than in Muslim countries, where Jewish people were allowed to live among Arabs, receive higher education, professionally practice. All of that was banned in Europe. The problem is - that Jews engage and successfully compete in activities, that they should not be doing. God, gave them Torah, made a chosen people, who supposed to shed light in the darkness, become teachers, wizards and example for humanity. Instead, they pull every dirty trick imaginable and deserve nothing but hatred.

[mecheil.edwar]

Russianclient, I appreciate all of what you say.
But What can we say? with deep regret this is the life. It is a struggle between the right and the false.
A struggle between injustice and justice.
People kill and take from others what they do not deserve.
And in other side, another group of people deprives them of their right to a decent life.

Today we live in a world full of lies, fraud and misinformation.

Today, not everything we read or hear is true.

Finally, I can say according to the Holy Bible.

..... Light came to the world, and unfortunately people loved darkness more than light.

Сообщение отредактировал mecheil.edwar - 26.05.2021 - 08:00

[ioncube]

mecheil.edwar, says that in all this regional conflict religion is a major factor
russianclient & Williams, say that personal affairs of greed & power always beget conflict

I will like to synchronize these x2 school of thought which I believe completes one another & cannot be taken separately but are synergistic in nature. In events (present & before) there is a higher politics done in secrecy, among selected few with cryptic letters & tacit approvals. These basically are the motion movers & planners of an event. The executers but are masses & street politics mostly unintelligent, moved by evangelism of clergy & political demagoguery. For the 1st class, religion not but interests matter. The 2nd majority class which does their bidding; religion is very relevant...

Jews never actually wanted to go to Israel. Not from Russia, not from Germany, not from Poland. They did not want to leave the countries where they had thriving economically and socially.

russianclient this is incorrect! You must realise x2 partitions occur (on belief basis) in 1947, both British mandates. The Pakistan & Israel! Indian native Muslims living there for centuries because of religious zeal migrated to Pakistan in what is the largest human exodus. These masses were moved by a strong belief undeterred by frequent death, murder & rape
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/8/15/remembering-partition-it-was-like-a-slaughterhouse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhajir_people#Migration

Superficially it seems that religion does matter & to this day Pakistan is regarded having Islamist origins (like Isarel's Zionist origin) but a deeper look says otherwise. Higher politics in Britain needed a frontline state against Soviets which united India may not offer so they had decided partition & everyone knows in Cold War to which side Pakistan allied with!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

Historians and political analysts have not paid enough attention to the crucial link between India's partition and British fears about the USSR gaining control of Central Asia. Realizing that Indian nationalists would not play the Great Game against the Soviet Union, the British settled for those willing to do so, using Islam as a political tool in pursuit of their objectives.

https://books.google.com.sa/books/about/The_Shadow_of_the_Great_Game.html?id=-A9uAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

If you look through this prism the origins of Israel starting from the Balfour declaration in 1917 till 1947 & until now you will realise that Israel is another frontline state for West against Arabs oil-rich nations. Its very existence & frequent armament by US reciprocates the need for other Arab states to buy new weapons & in turn Persian empire will buy to keep pivot balanced. Steel industry keeps on running in capitalistic Washington using Jihad against Zions & vice-versa!

Interests of secular (but vile) higher politics run hand-in-hand with believing (but dogmatic) street masses

[jollya]

I can't be sure but as I remember from the modern history Israel was established as the state after 2nd WW here just because Jerusalem is located here. Nobody asked anybody just because it was the decision of the US (primarily). And it was strategic purpose for the additional military base in this region. Futhermore it is geat jewish lobby in the US that wants to have the place of Jesus for their own honor. Nothing more. And the last but not least as the punishment foe arabs countries especially for Jordania that time.
So I want to believe that one day we will see end of the US supremacy and Israel will end its "history" and piece will come back to this land.

Sorry for mistakes in English.

Best wishes for all participants of LAVteam.

[russianclient]

I agree with above comment. USA pours money into Israel, to destabilize situation on the Middle East, but so they also give hundreds of million dollars and weapons to Arabs, so that they all killed each other. USA and Russia - are the biggest weapon exporters in the world.

However, let's make a scientific experiment and take USA, Russia and Israel out of picture. In the dark ages Great Britain had wars and took slaves. It was common at that time to steal the golden depository from besieged cities. Wars brought great economic profit. I do not think they did it because of Jews and slaves were mostly white. Before Spain became Christian, they too had wars and traded slaves. The black people from Africa were taking black slaves, re-selling them in Spain. Again, I do not think Jews had anything to do there. In the ancient times Romans had war with Carthage, again no Jews involved. And during the Crusade - British and German knights murdered Jews and Arabs equally.

So, I do not think that current Israel-Palestine controversy is rooted in religion. I have seen many people of different religions in foreign lands doing business peacefully, drink together for each other's health, laugh at their differences, become great friends and marry children to each other's families.